Last night I continued my meetings with the Mormon missionaries that have been coming to my home for Bible studies over the past two weeks or so. We began our discussion with the restoration of the Priesthood and how Joseph Smith claimed to have seen the Father and Jesus Christ. This is one of the most important claims that Mormonism makes. According to Mormonism the reason this vision was given was to restore the true gospel back to the church. If Joseph Smith really did have this vision then Mormonism is the true church, but if he did not then Mormonism is automatically proven to be false.Joseph Smith claimed to have actually seen the Father by his own words:
"When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defined all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other -- 'this is my beloved Son. Hear him!
Ok, it is clear that Mormons will support what their prophets say, but what does the Bible have to say about seeing the Father.
1 Timothy 6:16 - who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Jesus also said...
John 6:46 - Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
Simply put…here are two Scriptures that say no one can see the Father. Joseph Smith says that he saw the Father. Who is right? What about Steven in Acts 7, right?
Acts 7:55 - But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
Right before Steven was stoned he was allowed to catch a glimpse of the majesty of Jesus Christ. What exactly did he see? He saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. The “right hand” is simply a position of authority in that day’s culture. If you were on the right hand of someone that was a place of honor and preeminence. It showed that you had authority.
Did Steven see the Father? Does the text say that he saw the Father or the glory of God? He did not see the Father only the glory of God.
The Bible also says:
John 1:18 - No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
If the Bible says that no one can see the Father, but Joseph Smith says he has seen the Father, how can we reconcile these things? Easy. The Bible says that no one can see the Father therefore Joseph Smith did not see the Father, therefore Mormonism is false because it violates the clear teaching of Scripture.
For a deeper look at this subject. I recommend looking at the link at Carm.org – Can the Father be seen?
11 comments:
I would study your Bible and read about other testimonies of those whom had witnessed God's glory. You will find some of them fell to the ground in fear, Moses trembled with fear, John the Revelator fell to the ground as dead, Saul and his men were knocked off their horses. Ezekiel thought he was going to die. Gideon. Peter James and John during the transfiguration of Christ. Then read the eight different accounts of the First Vision and study Josephs Smith's reaction. I think it will be amusing.
Thank you for your comment! Let’s take a very quick look at some of your examples:
1. The does say that God spoke to Moses “face to face”. Sometimes in the Old Testament God spoke to a man face to face. God is Spirit (John 4:24), so He doesn't have a literal face. But He did communicate as directly as possible with Moses for example. Please also take notice of Exodus 33:20, just 9 verses later God says “You cannot see my face, for no man shall see me and live”.
2. You mentioned the Apostle John in Revelation 1:17-18.
“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Look at verse 18. When did God the Father die? He didn’t, but Jesus did. The Apostle John is seeing Jesus not the Father.
3. In Acts 9 Saul has the Damascus Road experience. The text plainly says this is Jesus.
Acts 9:3-5 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
4. During the Transfiguration the text never says that they saw the Father only that they heard His voice.
Mark 9:7-8 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” 8 Suddenly, when they had looked around, they saw no one anymore, but only Jesus with themselves.
Those are a few of the Scriptures that you mentioned. Why should I now research the vision of Joseph Smith when it clearly violates what the Bible teaches? I have read the witness testimonies in the Book of Mormon, but which first vision account should we believe? Check out this link, please.
http://www.mrm.org/topics/historical-issues/which-first-vision-account-should-we-believe
God bless!
Because when you read any of the eight different accounts. You will wonder why Joseph doesn't fear for his life like other patriarchs whom have seen God's glory. Now maybe if it wasn't mentioned in one account you could say well maybe it was forgotten. But forgotten eight different times? His vision is so casual that I'm surprised he didn't ask God if he could borrow had a match.
What if you took the same approach to discover the truth of the Book of Mormon that you did to discover the truth of the Bible? Whether you want to describe it as a feeling or something different doesn’t matter, you had to receive some kind of witness from God. I believe your faith is strong otherwise you wouldn't be spending your time with this blog. There are many who do not believe the Bible because their hearts are not open to it. Even if they read it and can quote it, they can discredit it with their own ideas of why what they read is false. They are not seeking a witness from God. The process you went through to find the truth of the Bible is the same process you should be using to find all truth. Otherwise you are just using your own interpretation of a scripture. For instance you said in reference to the stoning of Stephen, “The “right hand” is simply a position of authority in that day’s culture.” This is your interpretation of this scripture. I could interpret it differently. Someone else could interpret it differently than both of us. This is how we have created thousands of Christian churches over the ages, people doing exactly that. The only way God has ever helped his children find the truth among all the private interpretation is by providing divinely chosen Prophets to guide us. This was the role that Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Elijah, Daniel, Peter, Paul, John and many others have played. To preach the Gospel of truth. None of them relied exclusively on written words they relied on direct communication from God. Then the rest of God’s children have an opportunity to receive a confirming witness of the prophet’s words and use their agency to follow them or not. There is no blind faith only calculated faith.
Hey Micah! Thanks for your comments. I could ask you the same question about how you discovered the Book of Mormon. Did you also pray about the Koran? What about the Jehovah’s Witness Bible? Of course not! When something violates God’s Word we don’t have to pray about it because He has already told us in His Word. If something contradicts the teachings of Scripture is it false...period.
I know that being a Mormon you would interpret “the right hand of God” to mean that God has a body of flesh and bones, right? But the Father does not have a body, but is spirit. (John 4:24) Jesus also said that spirit does not have flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). Therefore the Father does not have a body of flesh and bone, but is spirit.
The office of the Old Testament prophet has ceased
Luke 16:16 – The law and the prophets were until John.
Do we need a prophet or a spoken word from God like the ones who came before us in the Old Testament? No, we do not.
Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,"
In the past God gave revelation through His prophets, but in these times, beginning with the Messiah’s advent, God spoke the message of redemption through the Son.
I have read the Koran but due to the fact that it contradicts the doctrine that Jesus was the Son of God, prayer was not necessary. As for the Jehovah's Witness Bible it is no different than the NIV or the many other translations of the Bible. They are all just a man's interpretation of what they thought God was trying to say.
Backing up your claims with scriptural references does little to prove your point because all of them fall into the same doctrinal flaw. They are all just you interpreting the verse in a way different than I do. This argument has been going on for 2000 years. The main difference now is you are still interpreting them based on your own personal understanding and I am interpreting them based on words from a living prophet, coupled with my own personal witness.
I could scripturally contradict every one of the verses you used, but in the end it would just become a contest of how you think this verse means one thing, when I think it means another. I am sure you have had that conversation a hundred times with LDS members and missionaries with no change to your beliefs.
"By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all things be established."
The idea that God has inspired prophets in the past, but does not do so now was the same argument the Pharisees used. They were decedents of Abraham and were living the Law of Moses to the letter. They knew what the truth was, so who was Jesus to question their strict obedience to the written law? They sought for truth in the scriptures and rejected the Messiah right in front of them.
Have you ever stopped and sincerely given the Book of Mormon a chance, with a humble heart? In it you will find verse after verse of beautiful witness of the divine sonship of Jesus Christ.
I testify that it is indeed Another Testament of our Savior and is proof that the Lord is just as interested in our lives today as he has been in times past. Anyone who reads it with an open heart will understand those words could never come from any other source, but from a loving God.
Why are you trying to tear people down?
No, you don't have to believe it. But don't try to bring others down with you.
I hope you realize your mistake when you die and are allowed to fix it.
I know with all my heart that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. Joseph Smith really did see God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. And Steven also saw them both. I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
I don't want to tear anyone down. What I want is for people to understand that Mormonism is a false religion. I want people to come to Jesus Christ so He can forgive them of their sins. The Jesus of Mormonism and the Watchtower is not the Jesus of the Bible. Only Jesus Christ, who is God in flesh, can forgive sins. Leave the false teachings behind. Repent and believe. (Acts 17:30,31)
You know with all your heart? Did you know the Bible tells us not to trust our hearts because the are deceitful and wicked? (Jeremiah 17:9) Don't trust your heart or "a feeling". Trust the Word of God.
Just curious, but how do you know who is really a Christian. I mean, are Roma Catholics true Christians? How about Methodists? Seventh Day Adventists? Just for clarification, as I am really confused about the state of Christianity today. I mean, if the Bible is the only reliable source of truth, and there are billions of Bible-believing Christians, why is Christianity fractured and broken up into countless denominations and sects that disagree violently about almosy every aspect of biblical teachings and doctrine.
Now that’s a great question! You know what? You’re right. There are a lot of denominations out there and boy,aren’t there just crazy stuff going on in Christianity? It can be so embarrassing! But we don’t want to judge Jesus based on the actions of some of His presumed followers. Furthermore, we just being people sometimes mess up. The Bible isn’t wrong. We are wrong. When you see people interpreting it and doing wrong things it not because the Bible is confusing, but we as people are just so confused.
Would you say someone is a Christian if they believe that God has a goddess wife and they produce spirit babies in Heaven, who then come to Earth and if they are good enough they can become gods themselves? I would say no, but did you know that is what Mormons believe?
What about if someone says they are a Christian and they deny that Jesus is God in flesh and they try with their works to become “saved”? Would you say that is a Christian? I would say no. The way we determine if any doctrine is correct is by examining the claims of Scripture, not by a feeling, or a revelation from any man. If the Bible teaches something and we deny that then we are wrong, not the Bible.
Personally, I believe that Roman Catholicism is one of the largest apostate religions in the world today and will lead millions into damnation. I will soon be publishing a section on this….Did you have a specific doctrine of Christianity in mind that you wanted to discuss?
As far as I can tell, the only "Christians" you don't beleive are going to Hell are the ones who follow your doctrine. In fact if I were Satan, and my job was to spend all my days deceiving the world, I am sure the doctrine you teach would be exactly the avenue I would take. How convenient and easy it is to live my life with nothing required of me but to sit back and "beieleve." How dare I try to actually LIVE the Gospel. No that would be "works" and we all know that works couldn't possibly be part of following Christ. That would lead to all kinds of bad things like helping others, and spending our time in service and selfliess giving. Nope I'm saved because I believe. Thats all I need. Thanks for the heads up Ty. Life is way easier now.
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